Discussion with a typical modern version Christian from the Facebook club called The King James Bible Discussion.
This Discussion took place on May 6th of 2012 at a Facebook club after a man names Stephen Joyner posted a series of articles criticizing the King James Bible and our position that it is the complete and infallible words of God. I asked Mr. Joiner to please answer my question and he did. I asked him if he personally believes there exists such a thing as a complete, inspired and 100% true Bible. He was kind enough to respond and I then responded to what he had said. Here is our conversation:
Stephen Joyner writes - “ Will Kinney. As far as my position on where to find God’s word, I think you know the scripture that says that scripture is God breathed and most would interpret that as inspiration. The prophets often would say thus saith the Lord or the word of the Lord came to me saying and so on. In short, inspiration took place with the original authors. There isn’t a passage that says a translation would be inspired like the original (feel free to provide any you are aware of). There are passages we both know that speak to God’s word being preserved.
So, I think the Bible teaches we will have what we can call God’s word and that it will be preserved. However, we both know that throughout history many Christians had little access to an error free copy of the Bible even if they could read or write. No two people seem to have had the same exact copy. That didn’t seem to matter to them and from what I’ve read in the link you gave me it doesn’t matter to you that the case was such in history.
Evidently people had what God wanted them to have and it could be viewed as reliable and that was enough because God ensured that it was so even if they didn’t have THE perfect word. I see no reason to believe anything has changed. Excepting that we are in a position to get closer to the original with discoveries of ancient papyri.
I have read through different translations and looked at differences that are pointed out in KJV only material. I still don’t think the differences matter. They all teach the same doctrine and the differences are inconsequential from everything I’ve seen.
Therefore I think God has preserved his word. There has been no manuscript discovery in over 100 years that changed what we didn’t already know about the text. The differences between the modern critical text and the TR amount to about 2%. The NT has by far more manuscript support than any other ancient writing.
Since the text’s transmission was so relatively stable, we can have good reason to believe that we have all the original words in the variants (despite how many there are) that are placed in margins of Bibles. The KJV translators noted that many things in the text are left doubtful so those things God left questionable even to the scholars should be put in the margin so we are not presumptuous in those things God left questionable! I agree with their view.
Would it be great if God dropped a perfect translation down that we could all have? Maybe, but I doubt it or else he would have done it and I see no reason to believe he has. So where is the perfect Bible we can trust you ask? The KJV is different from all other Bibles and it has had changes and errors in it yet it is not much different from modern translations.
I think all the major modern translations are faithful translations that have the same Greek text as the KJV over 98% of the time with rest in the margins (and those variants in the margin don’t matter to doctrine). But in short, God never promised a perfect translation and He certainly never gave one before 1611 and there’s no evidence He did it then too. God has kept his word safe but not in the hands of one group or in a translation that we would come to idolize. But we can be sure it’s safe nonetheless.
But to those that feel uneasy by the apparent uncertainty simply lack faith from my perspective. I don’t expect this response to be good enough to those who feel we must have a 100% perfect translation like the original Bible but I believe I am going with scripture and evidence from history. (End of post by Stephen Joyner)
Hi Stephen. I want to thank you for at least attempting to answer my question. That is far more than most here are willing to do. I obviously disagree with many of the points you bring up, but at least you did tell me what you believe and I appreciate that.
You tell us that we supposedly are getting closer to the originals because of the papyri evidence. This simply is not true. There are many cases where all the evidence, including the earliest, points to a correct reading, and yet your modern day Vatican Versions reject it and go with the false reading. Here is a concrete example and it also shows the constantly changing nature of such bogus bible versions like the NIV.
You also say that the Greek texts are about 98% the same. Well, once again this is not true. Plus we have the fact that your Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV are progressively rejecting more of the Hebrew readings and adding literally hundreds of words (the ESV especially) to the Hebrew texts.
All bibles are NOT 99% or even 98% the same -
The Vatican Versions (ESV, NIV, NASB, NET, Holman) often reject the clear Hebrew readings - Part One. There is also a Part Two.
You also tell us that there are No doctrinal differences among the various bible versions. Again, this simply is not true. Here are several examples of false doctrine found in you inferior bible versions
You also mention that you do not think any translation can be inspired. Where did you get this idea from? It certainly did not come from the Bible. The Bible itself clearly teaches us that a translation CAN BE the inspired words of God. Here is where and how it does this -
And lastly for now, it is clear that you do not believe there IS now nor ever was a complete and infallible Bible. As I read the Scriptures I see what the Bible says about itself. It tells me it is the true and perfect words of God. It tells me that He has promised to preserve His words and I appreciate the fact that you were at least willing to concede that point which many others deny. It also tells me that God cannot lie and He has said the Scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:36) and that heaven and earth will pass away but His words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:35) It also tells me to Seek out the Book of the LORD and read (Isaiah 35:16) and it tells me that individual words are critically important to God when He tells us not to add to nor take away from the words of this Book (Revelation 22:18-19)
So, by His sovereign grace I believe He has given me and many others the faith to believe what His Book says of itself and I see the sovereign hand of God in history fulfilling His promises to give us this Book of the LORD and it is in the end times universal language of English. The King James Bible is the ONLY Bible believed by thousands of blood bought children of God to BE in fact the inspired and infallible words of the living God.
There are many historical "coincidences" that show us the hand of God working in time and history to give us this Book and all the evidence points to the King James Holy Bible as being that Book.
Here are some of them -
And lastly, the Bible itself tells us that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ there will be a falling away from the faith (2 Thes. 2:1-4) and that God Himself will send a famine of hearing His words into the land (Amos 8:11-12), and the Lord Jesus asks in Luke 18:8 "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" The Whore of Babylon is very much alive and active and there will be a revival of this spiritual fornication in the last days and all the world will be deceived by and made drunk with the wine of her fornication. The majority of modern bible versions are the direct result of the Vatican influence. She is welcoming apostate Christianity into her bosom but God is calling His people to Come out of her. Some will hear God's voice and many will not.
By the grace of God, believing the Book and keeping His words,
More Notes from Facebook These comments came from the same Facebook club on the same day. This particular man says he knows both what God's words are and where they are found, yet he will NEVER tell us where we can see a copy of this "inerrant Bible" he apparently wants us to think he actually believes in. I have asked him dozens of times to show us this Bible he says he believes in, but he has never told us. He always dodges the question. Now, in response to my article "Does the King James Bible Only Postion "Blow up"? seen here -
he writes: Ken B writes:
"4. The Fundamentalist View - All of the fundamentals of the faith are in the Bible in spite of its mistakes and errors"
... All these views have one point in common: you don't actually have the Word of God in your hands. The Bible merely contains the Word of God.
So again, DO YOU deny that ALL modern versions contain the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" (end of Ken's post)
The problem with these modern perversions of God's pure words is the simple fact that NOBODY seriously believes that any of them are the complete, inspired and 100% true words of God. The Polls show this to be the case. Fewer and fewer Christians believe in the Infallibility of the Bible every day. So at what point in your Vatican Versions does God begin to tell us the truth? If you cannot believe the numbers and names in all places and all these bible versions contradict each other in numerous ways, then why would you think the parts that tell us about the gospel are true when you don't believe many of the other parts?
It is a fact that biblical knowledge is at an all time low and unbelief in the inerrancy of Scripture is at an all time high, and people actually read and study these fake modern bibles less and less. It is all happening according to God's purpose. He told us He would send a famine of hearing His words into the land. He told us that there will come a falling away from the faith and that men will depart from the truth in the last days and be turned unto fables. This is what is happening now but you are too blind to see it because you are on the wrong side of this issue. You are in the arms of the Whore of Babylon and don't even know it. Same goes for so many here at this forum. God says "Come out of her, my people".
“If we would destroy the Christian religion, we must first of all destroy man’s belief in the Bible.” Voltaire - ex French philosopher and former atheist.