Notes from the Internet - Is King James Bible Onlyism a Cult?
This interchange occurred in March of 2012 at a Facebook club called The King James Bible Debate -
Al posts: "One thing to consider if you might be involved with a cult - do they tenaciously teach something, as a very important doctrine, that is not taught in Scripture? For example:
Jesus is God (taught in Scripture) - okay!
Jesus died (taught in Scripture) - okay!
Jesus rose again (taught in Scripture) - okay!
Jesus is only a man (NOT taught in Scripture) - warning signs!
Mary is to be worshipped (NOT taught in Scripture) - warning signs!
The KJV is the only valid version (NOT taught in a single verse of Scripture since the KJV didn't even exist then) - warning signs!"
[End of Al's post]
Al, before you hypocritically and unreasonably attack the KJB position, you should apply the same rules to your own view and that of other bible agnostics like yourself. Where in any Bible in any language does it teach or even hint at what YOU guys believe?
Can you cite chapter and verse for any of these?
1. "Only the originals were inspired by God"
2. "The real words of God are found mixed up with thousands of variant readings in the surviving Greek manuscripts"
3. "No Bible is the perfect words of God; they all have errors in them."
4. "All bible versions, no matter how contradictory and different they might be textually, are the infallible words of God."
Where do you find anything even remotely close to any of these things that you bible agnostic types continue to throw at us on a daily basis?
What we DO know from Scripture is that God has promised to preserve His words. He says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but His words shall not pass away. He also says The Scripture cannot be broken. The Bible also tells us that God is a God of truth and He cannot lie. If I find lies in a "bible" version, then I know this is not the true words of God. This would be things like teaching that the children of Israel DECEIVED God as the NASB, NET versions have it in Psalm 78:36. Or that Jesus Christ had "origins" as the NIV, RSV, ESV 2001 edition have it in Micah 5:2. Or that teach that Jesus lied in John 7:8-10 as the NASB, ESV and NIV 2011 teach.
Yet God tells us to search out and read "the book of the LORD" (Isaiah 34:16), so such a book must exist somewhere. It is NOT in the varied Hebrew texts; that is only part of a bible. It certainly is not in the thousands of variant readings in piles of manuscript scraps in Greek that few can read and that do not make up a Bible either.
Either God has acted in history to bring us "the book of the LORD" or He lied and can not be trusted.
We King James Bible believers maintain that God did not lie but has kept His promises to preserve His words and He has done this in the end times masterpiece He provided and has been mightily used as no other to bring the gospel to the nations, and is the ONLY Bible seriously believed by thousands throughout history and today to be the complete, inspired and 100% true words of God - the Authorized King James Holy Bible.
What have you guys to offer us in its place? The Vatican Versions that continue to change with each new edition and that NOBODY believes are the infallible words of God and that people actually read and study less and less. THAT is what you have to give us.
No thank you. I and many others will stick to our God honored and time tested King James Holy Bible.
Objection: The King James Bible onlyists are a cult. The Mormons are also KJV Only.”
Response: It is almost humorous to see the pathetic extent that those who in fact do NOT believe that ANY Bible in ANY language IS or ever WAS the complete, inspired and infallible words of God will go in order to try to justify their own unbelief in the inerrancy of any Bible in print anywhere on this earth. In a futile and erroneous attempt to label the King James Bible believers as “heretics” and “cultists” they try to link this same belief in an inerrant Bible to a very real cult like the Mormon church. So they tell us -“Well, the Mormons are also KJV Only.”
This, of course, is simply NOT true at all. Here is one of their own Mormon sites that explains what Mormons believe. Notice what they themselves state about their beliefs regarding the Bible.
The Mormon’s own site. They list the 13 Articles of Faith.
Number 8 on this list is this -
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
The Mormon’s do “use” the King James Bible somewhat, but most of them have never read the entire Bible through even once, (in fact, most professing Christians never have either) and this is primarily because whoever actually wrote the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith or the man he stole it from) directly copied hundreds and even thousands of words, verses and whole sections right out of the King James Bible. But Mormons by no means believe it is the complete, inspired and infallible words of God and their final authority for both doctrine and practice.
The books they place above the King James Bible are The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants are the unique sacred books of the Mormon Church. These books are held by Mormons to be inspired by God and superior to the Bible.
So what we see is that it is the Bible agnostics, Bible critics, Bible Rummagers and self appointed “scholars” and textual critics, all of whom for the most part are promoting the new Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET, Holman, etc., that actually have far more in common with the Mormons than do the King James Bible believers.
Do the Mormons believe that the King James Bible or ANY Bible in any language is the complete and infallible words of God? Of course not. And neither do any of the people we run into all the time who use and promote the use of any Bible other than the King James Bible.
It is the height of irony to hear these unbelievers in the infallibility of ANY Bible accuse us King James Bible believers of being a “cult” merely because we believe God has given us an infallible Bible. This would then make “Orthodoxy” to be their Unbelief in the existence of a real Bible that is the complete and infallible words of the living God.
What Mormons actually believe. Watch this 6 minute video to see what Mormons believe. It is pretty incredible.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Luke 8:8
More from the Internet - Christian Forums
A few days after I had responded to Al post at the King James Bible Debate club on Facebook, he came back in another post and stated how he approaches "the Bible". This is what he said: "I don't use other translations because they're easier. But they reflect scholarship that considers all the MSS, and weighs them. And then I make my own reasonable decision whether I believe a text is original or not. And of course we may disagree. " (bold is mine)
To whom I responded: "There it is in a nutshell - "And then I make my own decision whether it's original or not." Every Man For Himself Bible Versionism gone to seed and exemplified here by Al E.
KJV people are Idolaters
Another similar charge is often brought against us King James Bible believers. It is ALWAYS done by someone who himself does NOT believe that any Bible in any language is or ever was the complete, inspired and 100% historically true words of God. They say "You KJV people are idolaters!" I am convinced that the "No Bible is infallible" crowd like to say we Bible believers are members of a cult or idolaters because this way they can feel better about themselves and justify in their own minds the fact that they themselves do not believe in the Infallibility of the Scriptures.
When I am accused of being an idolater because I believe the King James Bible is the infallible words of God, I simply tell them I am not an idolater at all but a worshiper of the one true God and Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who Himself said: "If a man love me, he will keep my words." (John 14:23) I don't have an altar in my house for my King James Bible where I burn incense and candles in its honor, nor do I worship nor offer up prayers to my Bible. I write in my King James Bible. I sometimes forget where I put it. I toss it in the back seat of my car and I have spilled coffee (or worse) on it on several occasions. I do not worship it. However I do believe it is the very words of the living God whom I DO worship in spirit and in truth.
In fact, I don't think I hold my King James Bible in a high enough esteem. I often grow cold in my affections and hunger for God's words compared to what I find recommended in the Scriptures themselves. God says in Isaiah 66:2 "but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, AND TREMBLETH AT MY WORD." Job says 23:12 "I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." David often says things like: "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day." "How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!" (Psalm 119:97, 103) and "In God I will praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word." (Psalm 56:10) "Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." (Psalm 119:140) And Jeremiah says: "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart" (Jeremiah 15:16) and of God Himself the Bible tells us "Thou hast magnified Thy word ABOVE ALL THY NAME." So, no, I have not made an idol of my King James Bible. I only wish I were more consistent in being able to love, and tremble at, and esteem and magnify and joy and rejoice in God's pure words as much as I see in His Book that others have done.
Brother Teno Groppi has written a short article on the accusation that we King James Bible believers "worship" the King James Bible. I would like to post it here. Teno writes:
More from the Internet -
Are King James Bible believers idol worshippers?
12 minute video by Brandon Staggs
More from the Internet
I also answer another man who goes by the screen name of ebia. -- "Hi ebia. The way you bible agnostics word things is always a little tricky. You make a pious pretense at believing in the infallibility of Scripture, but when pushed up against to wall to tell us honestly what you believe, we find that you really do not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language IS or ever was the complete, inspired and 100% true words of God. Here is an example. You tell us that "the idea that any translation is infallible is so absurd that nobody except a few incoherent extremists believe it therefore it is true". OK. I understand your point of view so far. So now tell us if you believe that ANY Bible in the original languages or the originals ever was or is now the complete, inspired and infallible words of God. If you say Yes, you believe in this infallible original language Bible (or whatever you come up with), then where can we see a copy of this infallible Bible you supposedly believe in so we can compare it to whatever Bible translation we are reading now so as to see the differences and similarities. Will you do that for us? Or will you be honest enough to admit that you not only do not believe that any translation is infallible, but also that NO Bible in ANY language is the infallible words of God? What do you say? Thanks,"
Ebia writes back: "Me? I think infallibility is a category mistake. But whatever the bible is applies in the first instance to the original manuscripts which we don't have. We have something approaching that - close enough to be useful, reliable... Everything the letter to Timothy says it should be."
I then closed out with: "So, in plain words - "No, no Bible is the infallible words of God. All we have is "close enough to be useful". Just as I thought."
Another thought about the criticisms and false claims I often hear from the Bible Agnostic crowd who say:- "You King James Bible only people are members of a cult." As I understand the meaning of a cult, it is a group of religious people who teach some kind of false doctrine and deny one of the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
I find it interesting that those who do not believe in the existence of ANY Bible in ANY language (including "the" Hebrew and "the" Greek) and do not believe in the Infallibility of the Bible (ANY Bible) seem to consider themselves "orthodox" while we Christians who believe God has been faithful to His promises to preserve His words in "the book of the LORD" and that there really IS such a thing as a complete, infallible and 100% historically true Bible that contains ALL the inspired words of God are now considered to be "a cult".
We do live in interesting times, don't we. I am reminded of the words spoken by God in Isaiah where He says: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight." Isaiah 5:20-21
Four popular views about The Bible
1. The Roman Catholic View - The Holy Mother Church and tradition define what is in the Scripture
2. The Liberal View - The Bible is full of myths and legends
3. The Neo-Orthodox View - The real issue is what the Bible teaches, not its historical accuracy
4. The Fundamentalist View - All of the fundamentals of the faith are in the Bible in spite of its mistakes and errors
All these views have one point in common: you don't actually have the words of God in your hands. The Bible merely contains the words of God.
The Bible Believer's View - We do have the inspired words of God in our hands
God's Book of the LORD = the Authorized King James Holy Bible. Accept no substitutes.
More Notes from the Internet-
Thomas, the unbeliever in an infallible Bible in ANY language, posts: “Will, you are trying to scare people into following your cult.”
Hi Doubting Thomas. Let me see if I have your line of reasoning straight here, OK. I am a Bible believer. This means that I actually believe God has sovereignly acted in history to give to the world a Standard of Absolute Written Truth in a real and tangible Book called the Holy Bible. It not only contains but IS the very inspired and infallible words of the living God.
God has abundantly born witness in history to His hand upon this single book far more than any other. It was THE Bible that was used to bring about some of the greatest revivals in history. It was THE Bible to be taken to the far ends of the earth when the world wide missionary outreach began, and it was the ONLY Bible to be taken to outer space and read from there. That will never happen again. And it is the ONLY Bible believed by thousands of blood bought saints even today to be the complete and infallible words of the living God. And your “most humble opinion” is that I and those like me who actually BELIEVE the whole Bible we can hold in our hands and give a copy of it to anybody who asks are “a cult”.
So, in your way of thinking, this must mean that those who are like YOU - those who admit that they do not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language IS or ever WAS the complete (66 inspired books in a single volume) and infallible words of God, and who disagree among themselves concerning hundreds of very different variant readings, and who keep churning out one revision and updated version after another that NOBODY seriously believes IS the infallible words of God are...”Orthodox”.
Have I got this right, Thomas? And you think WE are a cult?!?
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight.” Isaiah 5:20-21
My own views on King James Bible onlyism
God will lose none of His own, no matter what bible version they may be using. “As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” John 17:2
“If we would destroy the Christian religion, we must first of all destroy man’s belief in the Bible.” Voltaire - ex French philosopher and former atheist.
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