Internet Dealings with the Bible Agnostics.
To give you a better idea of the mind set of what I refer to as Bible Agnostics (a = not + gnostic = to know; people who do not know for sure what God said or where to find a complete and inerrant Bible in ANY language)
Most (probably 95%) of the bible agnostics we run into are fundamentally dishonest people. They want to put on a pious front of being Bible believers and will say inane and meaningless things like "We believe the Bible is inerrant in the originals" - which of course is just a mindless mantra that means nothing.
They have an Invisible, Imaginary, Make Believe, Let's Pretend "bible" and they confess a faith in something that even they know does not exist. So instead of being honest about the fact that they have (present tense) NO inerrant Bible to believe in, they chose to ignore the question and the logic of their own statements.
But this doesn't seem to stop them from finding fault with the only Bible believed by thousands of blood bought Christians even today to be the complete and inerrant words of God. They all end up making themselves and their personal preferences their "final authority".
And then they call us a cult because we believe The Book and they do not. We do live in interesting times.
One such man is Sam Shamoun, who writes a lot of articles on the internet and thinks he has some kind of “ministry” using multiple bible versions that not even he believes are the infallible words of God.
Bible Agnostic #1.
Sam Shamoun (a card carrying Bible Agnostic) posts: "Here goes the troll again, spamming comments section with his stupidity, lies and ignorance. Will, I may be riding a jack ass but YOU ARE a jack ass, which is why you are constantly braying like one, spewing out with your nonsense and deception SINCE YOU YOURSELF DON’T HAVE A PERFECT BIBLE. You are no different than the Muslims, since they too like you deceive themselves that the Arabic text of the Quran is perfect, having no flaws. You, on the other hand, have deceived yourself that the KJV is a perfect English translation, despite the fact that the underlying Greek manuscripts were not in perfect agreement, but contained dozens of variant readings.
So let me expose your lies and deceptions for all to read. Will, which Greek manuscript used to make up the Textus Receptus is the absolute flawless, perfect Bible, seeing that NONE of these Greek manuscripts which make up the TR are in complete, perfect agreement?
I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to be man enough to answer since you have shown that integrity and you do not mix too well with each other." (end of Sam's tantrum)
Hi Sam. You bible agnostic guys can get pretty nasty, huh? I thought it was all us KJB only guys who are "mean spirited and nasty" and that all you KJB critics and Bible Rummagers where all about "sweetness and light".
Anyway, you ask: "So let me expose your lies and deceptions for all to read. Will, which Greek manuscript used to make up the Textus Receptus is the absolute flawless, perfect Bible, seeing that NONE of these Greek manuscripts which make up the TR are in complete, perfect agreement?"
Sam, this is not that difficult to answer. But keep in mind that this argument of yours only supports your REAL belief (or rather, basic UNbelief) in the inerrancy of ANY Bible in any language - including those long gone, never seen by you, Imaginary "originals only". The hypocrisy of your own position (and that of professional liars like James White - they get paid to lie to people when they say "I believe the Bible IS the infallible words of God") is that there is NO Greek manuscript anywhere on this earth that matches your ever changing ESVs, NIVs, NASBs, NET, Holman, NKJV or any other "bible" version you have either.
In fact, there is NO Greek or Hebrew manuscripts anywhere on this earth that you fellas honestly believe are God's infallible words. If you think I am wrong about this, then prove it and simply SHOW us this infallible Bible text you guys apparently want us to think you actually believe in. Will you do that for us, Sam?
Here is the answer to your question. There was no perfect and infallible Bible before the King James Bible. The Reformation text had some minor errors, both in texts and translations, but they were all a whole lot closer to the Truth than are your modern day Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET, etc. God's words needed to be purified and put into the end times universal language of English.
Now, before (or even, after) your head explodes, keep firmly in mind that YOU do NOT believe there EVER WAS and IS NOT NOW a perfect and infallible Bible in ANY language. So you can stop thinking your are so clever and wise in your own eyes with this "tricky" question.
There is lots of evidence - textual, historical and theological - that the King James Bible is God's infallible Book. There are no "NIV only" or "ESV only" or Nestle-Aland, UBS/Vatican Critical text only groups or believers out there. None. Why? Because not one of you guys actually believes that ANY of these bogus and corrupt versions are the infallible words of God. And you know you don't.
So stop being a hypocrite and have the decency to be honest about the fact that there is NO Bible EVER that you really believe is or ever was the 100% true words of God.
To see just some of the historical "coincidences" where God Himself has born witness to the King James Bible as being His Book, See "The Absolute Standard of Written Truth - the King James Bible."
There are NO errors in the King James Bible - textual or theological. If you think you have one that your got from your fellow bible agnostic hero James White or anybody else, tell us what it is and we can take a closer look at it.
Oh, and by the way. When are either you or James White or Dan Wallace or R.C. Sproul, or Doug Kutilek or James Price or any other unbeliever in the inerrancy of a REAL Bible going to get around to SHOWING us a copy of this "infallible Bible" you guys lie about when you say you believe in such a thing?
Not gonna happen, is it Sam?
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
Part 2. Sam Shamoun just got back to me with this response -
Sam Shamoun says:
September 18, 2014 at 6:09 pm
Thank you for exposing yourself for the repulsive, lying charlatan that you are:
“Here is the answer to your question. THERE WAS NO PERFECT AND INFALLIBLE BIBLE BEFORE THE KING JAMES BIBLE. The Reformation text had some minor errors, both in texts and translations, but they were all a whole lot closer to the Truth than are your modern day Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET, etc. God’s words needed to be purified and put into the end times universal language of English.”
Being too stupid to see how your comments here assault the very God you claim to worship, let me break it down for you. Per your rant and attack against modern Bibles an their supporters, you just assaulted the living God by insinuating that he failed to provide his church with a perfect Bible for approximately 1500 years! You further assault God by saying that his words NEEDED TO BE PURIFIED as if they weren’t pure the moment he revealed them!!!!
What was that about God preserving his words according Psalm 12:6-7? BTW, did God preserve the Hebrew of Psalm 12:7, or only the English translation? ;-)
I am now going to post your statements on facebook for all to see what kind of blasphemous repulsive troll you truly are. You utterly sicken and disgust me, and you are truly a disgrace to Christianity.
Now prove you are a man of God by witnessing to Muslims, JWs and others who will eat you up alive. This is why you can only come here and spam comments sections with your KJV idolatry, just like the pagan that you really are, since you know you do not have the courage, integrity, or the intelligence to do so.
Like I said, a repulsive troll.
To whom I responded - willjkinney says:
September 18, 2014 at 6:35 pm
Hi Sam. Sir, if you think (as you here say) “you just assaulted the living God by insinuating that he failed to provide his church with a perfect Bible for approximately 1500 years!” then all you have to do to prove you are right and I am wrong about this is to simply do what so far you have only continued to DODGE, avoid and refuse to answer – SHOW US A COPY of this perfect Bible you apparently want us all to think you actually believe in!
Pretty simple, Sam. Got one you can show us (Can you give us the link to where we can see it)?
Sam Shamoun - March 30, 2015
Dealing with the "sweet and loving" Bible Agnostics who keep telling us how "nasty and mean spirited" all those King James Bible believers are -
Sam Shamoun posts: "Let me place what this heathen blasphemer just wrote, so you can see how he just assaulted the living God for failing to care enough for anybody till 1611 since he failed to provide them a perfect Bible:
“The only thing the Vatican Version promoting, unbeliever in the inerrancy of ANY Bible in any language at any time in history, Sam Shamoun, got right here is the fact that I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE WAS A PERFECT AND INERRANT BIBLE BEFORE THE KING JAMES BIBLE.””
Not only has this blasphemer denigrated God, he also shows that his real god is not the One revealed in the Bible, but the KJV itself which he blindly worships to his own shame and destruction. Like I said, go and listen to how he self-destructed when White nailed him by asking the right kind of questions to exposes these idolaters for who they truly are. OUCH!!!
It is repulsive idolatrous slime like him that help the enemies of the Lord Jesus to assault and blaspheme the living God. This is why this wolf would make a terrific Muslim apologist." [End of "sweetness and light" from the Bible Agnostic crowd]
Hi Sam Shamoun. Sir, you are totally missing the point. YOU yourself do NOT believe that any Bible in any language IS NOW or EVER WAS the complete, inerrant, 100% true, preserved and infallible words of God. That is what you really believe; you and James White and others like him are just too dishonest to admit it.
SHOW US A COPY of this infallible Bible you keep pretending to believe in, or have the decency to be honest about it and just admit that you really do not believe such a thing exists.
You may not be interested, but others might. See my article “Was there a perfect Bible before the King James Bible?”
More Dealings with the Bible Agnostics and James Wite Out fans.
Sam Shamoun, the dishonest bible agnostic and unbeliever in the inerrancy of ANY Bible, posts: "It is repulsive idolatrous slime like him (Will Kinney) that help the enemies of the Lord Jesus to assault and blaspheme the living God. This is why this wolf would make a terrific Muslim apologist."
Once again, Sam is just blind to the facts and how the Muslims are attacking the Bible. James Wite Out (his hero and Todd Friel's as well) is now saying that Luke 23:34 - "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." - is NOT inspired Scripture; it doesn't belong in the Bible and he would not preach on it.
Guess who posted James White's video teaching on this. A Muslim! They love this guy, and are using James White's own material to try to convince Christians that we do not have an inerrant Bible. Of course, men like James White will SAY they believe the Bible IS the inerrant, inspired and infallible words of God, but when you ask them to show you a copy or tell us exactly which one it is so we too can get one for ourselves, they will NEVER, ever tell you. Why? Because they are lying through their teeth, and they don't really believe such a thing exists. Just like Sam Shamoun.
James White says Luke 23:34 is not inspired Scripture
Do you agree with your hero on this one, Sam? My bet is you will simply DODGE this question too, just like you and James Wite Out do when I ask you to show us a copy of this infallible words of God Bible you profess to (and lie about) believe in.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor. 14:38
Part Three with Sam Shamoun
Sam Shamoun posts on March 30, 2015.
“Once again, this blasphemous slime avoids the ramifications of his own blasphemous take on Bible preservation, so let me put this in all caps for him in order to come clean.
KINNEY, SINCE YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD LEFT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT A PERFECT BIBLE FOR OVER 1500 YEARS, ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT THIS MEANS THAT HE DIDN’T CARE OR LOVE ALL THESE PEOPLE ENOUGH? AND ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT THAT GOD LOVED THE ENGLISH SPEAKING MUCH MORE THAN HE DID ALL THE REST OF THE FOLKS WHO, UP UNTIL 1611, HAD NO PERFECT BIBLE IN ANY OF THE LANGUAGES WHICH THE BIBLE HAD BEEN TRANSLATED IN, I.E. LATIN, SYRIAC, COPTIC, ARMENIAN ETC.? THEREFORE, YOUR GOD OR YOUR VIEW OF GOD MEANS THAT YOU HAVE A DEITY WHO DOESN’T LOVE ALL THE DIFFERENT NATIONS THAT HE MADE AS MUCH AS HE LOVES YOU WHITE ENGLISH SPEAKING FOLK.
Your arrogance and blasphemy wreaks of just how repulsive you truly are. It is a sad shame that badmanna actually endorses such a wicked blasphemous slime like yourself.”
[End of Sam Shamoun’s comments}
Hi Sam. Sir, as usual, you misunderstand and misrepresent just about everything I believe and you yourself are STILL being dishonest with us in that you will NEVER identify for us what this “complete, inspired and inerrant words of God Bible” you apparently want us to think you actually believe in is.
The simple reason you will not SHOW US A COPY of this inerrant Bible in ANY language, is because you do not believe such a things exists now or ever did exist. But you are too proud, too blind and too dishonest to admit it.
Having a perfect Bible and God’s love are not related at all. In fact, if we follow your own reasoning here - “If God didn’t give a perfect Bible in all the languages of the world, then God doesn’t love all these people.” falls flat on its face. Why? Because YOU don’t believe that ANY Bible (66 books in one volume) in any language IS or ever WAS the perfect and inerrant words of God.
Then, by your own argument and twisted logic, God must not love ANYBODY!
The gospel of salvation and the love of God towards His people is found in ANY Bible in any language out there. The inerrant Bible issue is not a salvation issue. God can and does reach His people with the gospel of the saving grace of Christ who died and rose again to “save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21) using any bible out there, no matter how corrupt and imperfect it may be in many other ways.
Your analogy is also wrong in that it is not Biblical. There was a time - a very long time of hundreds and even a couple thousands of years, when there was only ONE nation and one language that had the true words of God.
“He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.” Pslams 147:19-20.
God is now redeeming His people out of “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), but there was a time (a very long time) when He dealt primarily with only one nation of people, and they alone had His words of truth.
“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:6
Today the gospel goes out to all nations, but not all nations have a perfect and inerrant Bible. God only promised that the gospel would be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations - See Matthew 24:14. But He never promised to give every nation or individual His complete and infallible words.
But He DID promise to preserve them and to give us “the book of the LORD” (Isaiah 34:16), and that heaven and earth shall pass away, but not His words. (Matthew 24:35)
English is the closest thing to a universal language and the modern missionary movement began with English and American missionaries carrying the King James Bible into the uttermost regions.
There are lots of reasons why the King James Bible is God’s Standard of perfection and inerrancy. God has borne witness to this Book far more than any other bible in many ways. Here are a few of those reasons.
God's Historic Witness to the Absolute Truth of The King James Holy Bible
So Sam, either show us a copy or give us a link to where we can see it, or tell us exactly which Bible out there among the Bible Babble Buffet versions IS this complete, inspired, inerrant and 100% true words of God, or try a little honesty and just admit that you really do not believe such a thing exists.
But you are not going to do either, are you Sam?
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Luke 8:8
Bible Agnostic #2.
Tom, the bible agnostic, Stewart posts: "I fully believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures in their original writing, in their original languages."
Hi all. This is the pathetic and meaningless mantra parroted by every Bible Agnostic and new Vatican Version user out there. This is the same mumbo jumbo put out there by "many respected Christian leaders" today in their silly Chicago Statement on Inerrancy.
They are bible agnostics pretending to be Bible believers. They are "boldly" confessing an empty faith in something they have never seen; most of them couldn't even read them if they had them, and most importantly, in something that THEY KNOW DOES NOT EXIST - those non-existent, hypothetical, imaginary, Make Believe, Fairy Tale "originals only". Now, how silly is that?
Try taking The Bible Agnostic Test and see how you do. Then SHOW us this infallible Bible you profess (and lie about) to believe in. Go ahead. Give it a try.
The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy = just more Evangelical mumbo jumbo signifying nothing.
#3. More Dealings with the Bible Agnostics -
To a guy who says King James Bible only believers are a "cult"
Hi Michael. So, let me get this straight. We King James Bible believers who actually have a real, tangible Bible we can hold in our hands, read and believe every word is the inspired and inerrant words of God are (in your way of thinking) a "cult".
Then this must mean that bible agnostics like you, bible rummagers, inerrancy deniers, dishonest men who lie when they say "I believe the Bible IS the infallible words of God", and yet have NO Bible in ANY language that they honestly believe IS the complete and inerrant words of the living God, and couldn't show us a copy of this infallible Bible they profess to believe in if their life depended on it, are... "Orthodox."
Is that about right, Michael?
# 4. More Dealings with the Bible Agnostics -
Darrell B. posts: " But where in the Bible does it teach that there is a preserved translation?"
Hi Darrell. Bible agnostics like you (you do not know for sure what God may or may not have recorded in His Book) and other unbelievers in the inerrancy of any Bible in any language (again, like you) often come up with this question. But it is a hypocrites question. Why do I say this?
Simply because you are demanding of the Bible believer that he defend his position from the Bible, when you in turn are not able to defend yours from this same Bible.
You are asking us to do what you yourself cannot do, and then criticizing us for not being able to give you a specific verse that says "The King James Bible is the infallible Book of the Lord."
Where in any bible does it say or teach the things you believe? You know, stuff like "only the original autographs are inspired". Chapter and verse, please.
Or, "all versions are reliable", or "No translation can be inspired and inerrant." Again, got a verse that teaches any of this stuff you bible agnostics believe?
What we DO know is that God is the ruler over the nations; He is the sovereign King of kings and Lord of lords, and He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou? See Daniel 4:35
God cannot lie. That is one of the things God cannot do. And He has promised to preserve His words (Psalm 12); to give us "the book of the LORD" (Isaiah 34:16) and that heaven and earth shall pass away, but His words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)
There is only one Book that thousands of blood bought Christians believe IS this complete and inerrant Bible. It also happens to be the All Time Best Seller in history. It is the only Bible taken into outer space and read from there. It is in the universal end times language of English. It is the only one still standing after 400 years of continual attack and criticism.
God's historical witness to the King James Bible = Absolute Truth.
We believe God did not lie or exaggerate. We believe He really has worked in history to give us the true "book of the LORD" that we can actually hold in our hands, read and believe is the inerrant words of the living God.
And what do YOU have to give us in exchange? Thousands of ancient textual variants? 200 different versions that contradict each other in hundreds of verses and meanings? Those non-existent and never seen "originals only"? Or your own personal preferences as you modify, change, re-translate and piece together your own "bible version" that differs from all the others and follows the mindset of "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes."? Judges 21:25
Because, face it, Darrell. That is really all you have to give us, isn't it.
More Dealings with the Bible Agnostics -
Jeff posts: “This appears to be your favorite/pet doctrine. I hope you spend your time in a well balanced manner rather than engaging in KJV onlyism debates all day every day. To answer your question I believe every translation does have imperfections even the KJV. I had to read no further than the second paragraph in the link you pasted above to find one. You quoted Jeremiah 23:36; how did the word LORD come to be in that text? Should it not be YHWH or very likely Yahweh? This much I do know it should not be translated LORD. Does this really change any major doctrines? No, as is the case with most differences in these translations. Is it your contention that the KJV could in no way be improved? I say take up and read most any of the conservative bible versions of today(NASB, NKJV, ESV) as long as it isn't the Message Bible or some "dynamic equivalent version" or paraphrase. Also learn from teachers and church history and you will come to the truth.”
Hi Jeff. Sir, it is obvious that you do NOT have or believe in the existence of a complete and inerrant bible in any language. And apparently you didn't bother to read the examples of perverted and changed doctrines found in your fake bible versions you like so much.
Fake bibles DO Teach False Doctrines
You have set up your own mind and understanding as your "final authority" - Every man did that which was right in his own eyes - Judges 21:25
An example of this is your YHWH thingy you mention as being an "imperfection" in the KJB. Apparently the very versions you recommend (but don't believe) like the NASB, NKJV, ESV didn't "get it right" either, did they.
And these version you recommend, that even YOU would "correct" differ from each other by literally thousands of textual words. I guess in your way of thinking, the TEXTS don't really matter all that much. Is this your idea of being "balanced"?
If it is, then may God in His mercy keep me from it.
JEHOVAH is absolutely correct in the King James Bible, and here is why -
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
More Dealings with the Bible Agnostics -
Barrett, the bible agnostic, posts: "The King James Bible is the final and only true word of God" -- This is as ridiculous a statement as I've ever read or heard. The KJV doesn't take into account the most recently found manuscripts, the best manuscripts, or the best scholarship. The KJV isn't inspired by God. The manuscripts in the original languages are inspired, and there are many, many, many more accurate, more faithful, translations. I'm not sure where this whole "KJV only" movement came from, but it's a distraction at best and a heretical teaching at worst. Get rid of your King James Bible. That'll be the best move you've made in a long, long time."
Hi Barrett. Sir, you have been deceived by the spirit of whoredoms. All you have to give us are the usual mindless mantras of your fellow bible agnostics. Things like "recently found mss.", "the best mss." etc. The simple FACT is, you have NO complete and inerrant Bible to give us in ANY language, and you know you don't.
So, in your twisted way of thinking, we King James Bible believers who have a real and tangible Bible we actually believe is the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God and we can tell anyone where to get one for themselves, are "a distraction at best and heretical at worst".
This then must mean that guys like you who have NO inerrant Bible in any language to believe in, who recommend the new Vatican Versions that omit literally thousands of words from the N.T. and reject numerous Hebrew readings from the O.T., and add hundreds more words to the Hebrew texts (ESV, NET), and don't even agree among themselves and pervert numerous sound doctrines are....Orthodox, right?
I know exactly where you are coming from and what your arguments are. I hear them all the time. You may well be too far gone to even read something from a true Bible believer at this point.
But here for anyone who might be interested is my own article "Six Lies Modern Scholarship Tells Us"
It address all the silly things you just said, and more.
Now, if all your "new discoveries" and "the best mss." have managed to give you an inerrant Bible to believe in, can you show it to us?
Will you do that for us, Barrett? Not gonna happen, is it.
What you actually have are your new Vatican Versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET, etc. And you are either too ignorant, too blind or too dishonest to acknowledge it.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8